"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”Ghandi
What does it mean to be effectively reaching our world?
What really bothers me is that in many cases we have made evangelism to be something so unnatural and awkward. I think some of this comes to our misunderstanding of what the Gospel is... as well as our misunderstanding of what people think about God and spirituality.
I have many many thoughts to share on this[in following articles]. To be short this time I want to make a statement:
Of all religions, Christianity is without a doubt the one that should inspire tolerance most, although, up to now, the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men
Agree/Disagree? Why?
34 comments:
I always appreciate it when a guy sticks his balls out there. You do that continuosly.
To say Christians have been the most intolerant of all men... I don't know. Billy Graham comes to mind and I've always thought of him as a man of tolerance... gets me thinking. If Christians really are the most intolerant, why would that be? Is it a direct reflection on our local churches? Or maybe just our pastors?
I heard a comment once that forever changed my view on people who don't understand God.
"They don't even belong to our kingdom, so how can you expect them to follow our rules."
Now, for the moment, I will overlook all the negatives about this statement and focus on the primary thought behind it. I agree with you Mark, because how can we measure and judge someone who is innocent. I know that if a cop pulls you over for speeding and you honestly didn't know you were, that he doesn't show a lot of mercy for you. My view of God is the opposite of that. We can sit around and judge people because they haven't experienced and learned and een taught what we have. Just because we found something, doesn't mean we can prosecute them for not finding it yet. Besides, who's to say that what we found is the right thing anyways? People are people, and we are people...so accept people.
It's late...I'm on a computer...and I don't have answers.
Zee ... Are you remembering any police officer in particular ;)
Looking through out history, that statement is true.
However, if we go to far and exceed that, then we become 'post-modern'. And it's a "what works for oyu works for you." mentality.
There is a medium. A happy one. And that's the point of grace. Grace, from what I see it of it, doesn't mean there is not a point of correction.
Much like the discussion going on on dilberts blog, it's all about attitude when you correct/rebuke someone. You find out why they're doing something. What's going on, you get to the core. If they don't know what they are doing is wrong, explain to them your side of it, what you understand, in a reasonable, compassionate way.
I wonder what being tolerant entails completely? i'm not sure if this is it, but this is what i've always thought we should do about it.
we can blab our lips as much as we want, but nothing we say will change anyones mind until we first show that we care about the person we're talking to. no matter how disgusting their ideas or theologies are, if we dont show that they are more to us than a "avenge-alism" project, our words hold no salt. I dont care how ridiculous or horrible what they beleive is, and i dont need to agree with it, but how else will the gospel peirce their hearts?
Good point Delbert...this is on of my frustrations is that many people feel they need to convert people to a doctrinal stand. Why do you think this is so pandemic? Could it be that the real transformation has not yet taken root or is it a maturity thing?
Skierboy - Its a simple thing...just being present in peoples lives... but why is it that we are not connecting the dots? Are people to focused on the Sunday church crap? [if thats all you focus on then it is Crap]
You know so much of it is in the way we say things - perhaps our vocabulary. I don't know if we value the person we are talking to if we think their ideas are "horrible" or "disgusting". Why can we not just accept the people that God brings into our circle of possible influence for who they are - people who have a choice to make about the eternity that awaits them. Whatever they choose is ultimately up to them. Where do we come in to this equation? Clearly, it is to be present - through it all - as a follower of the true and living God. The INTOLERANCE comes in when we don't love or value or deeply care about the people that God brings our way. "...your Christians are so unlike your Christ" Why? - perhaps we are not as thoughtful about the people around us as Jesus was about the people around him - does that make us infact truly uncaring? (emphasis on the "truly") It does not have to do with the "church" or "pastors" - IT has to do with us, let's take some responsibility.
Just a thought...relate to people, have relationship, and then live the journey of beautiful life with them.
Skierboy
Yes you are right... its putting ourselves in the place where we can engage life with people... But we are often too busy doing church stuff. We have in essence made 'our third space' church. Leaving no room for us to engage others in their third space [taking oldenbergs concept].
Tolerance is a part of it but is not in the way we think of it... Not a 'we are better' arrogant tolerance but a 'We are different and thats ok.' Our distinctives are not important in a 'real'ational world.
*****
Jaz
I thinkg its important to point out that this is a leadership issue... the cultural formers are the leaders and this unfortunately is a culture that has been formed by leaders and people have accepted this as true. Not to say that people must take ownership but it is a cop out to say that its not about leaders. On one hand we want to value leaders but on the other hand we don't want to call into account and ask leaders to take responsibility for whats theirs.
But in saying that you do make a valid point ... people must take responsibility and do whats right regardless of what their 'cultural' climate is.
Yes, I agree with you that leaders do have a part... but I feel often we like to put more blame on leaders than is deserved. Leaders stimulate ideas and present them for discussion - but we are to take them and process them through our own understanding cognitively and emotionally, in contrast to what God's word says. God's word says we are to Love People - based on nothing more than because God loves people. I am unsure how much we really "love" people authentically. Or perhaps better yet would be "do we know how to love people"
God is Love
We Love people?
People see God through that
Just random rambling...
We do not understand the word 'love'
we do not understand God's love
we do not understand the gospel
we do not understand what people think about all those.
what do they mean?
Zee ..."They don't even belong to our kingdom, so how can you expect them to follow our rules."
Pretty interesting statement... If I could comment on a negative on this...
thats the kind of arrogance that paints a bad picture for Christians trying to live out their faith missionally.
I have pages of response to that statement alone... but I will surrender to short and sweet.
I know of some that are non-christian but are more kingdom minded than most Xians... enough said
Mark, I know that statement is incredibly dismissive, and it came in a point in my life where I was caught up with the hype of church experience. I totally agree with you about some poeple being more kingdom minded then Xians and it makes me wonder sometimes why we think we've got the answers and we're the ones that people should follow to Jesus.
Perhaps I misunderstand the concept, but sometimes I think that "Christians trying to live out their faith missionally" have missed the point too. What if we live our lives loving and serving our friends, family, and community and never inspire a single soul towards Jesus...Have we failed our mission?
"Our distinctives are not important in a 'real'ational world." This is a great statement. Why do we think that our greatest distinctive (being a Xian) makes us something that other people will want to model their lives after? I think perhaps the greatest intolerance comes when we ask people to forsake their lives and follow God. Jesus said to pick up our cross (not leave it behind) and follow him. Perhaps we can learn just as much from "non-Xians" as they can learn from us.
Zee
Living life that serves, loves and cares for our friends family and community I personally think will always result in someone encountering Jesus. I don't think its possible for someone not to find Christ if we do that... But in saying that our objective is to love, care, and serve even if they never did make that decision.
Failing our mission? Maybe understanding what our mission is important.
WOW
Don't check out a blog for less than two days and looks what happens. A lot of good discussion in here. After reading peoples comments I'm excited to hear there are a few people out there who just want to go out and live it. Love God. Love people. Along the way enjoy the journey.
I've heard Mark talk a lot about kingdom people. I'm a person who's coming out of the rubbles of destructive church hype and I can't help but feel my neighbour has been more influential in her life than in my own. She doesn't attend church, read her Bible everyday or listen to Hillsongs in her car... As a Christian I've been given a simple message but I struggle with it... maybe I need to find that Hillsongs CD. If Christians have been clearly given a mission and are called to be missional, then why do they struggle with it so much?
Living missionally, in my definition, is a long the lines of serving. You're on a mission to encounter Christ ina very living real way.
Looking at Jeremiah, the prophet. He did many things, and said many things in hopes to help people to encounter the living God. He spoke the words of GOd. Yet no body listened. Sometimes the most that will result of your lifes work will be nothing. Yet you've pleased the Father completely.
The bible doesn't promise results. It promises life.
The bible doesn't promise results. It promises life.
wow steve. good word.
ghandi would have been chums with jesus.
i think they would have had deep talks with a draft and a cigar talking about the ALEXANDER KEITH!
man. i think it would be an ignorant generalization to take the stand that most, up to now christians are of the most intollerant of all man... although we have our disgusting share of hatred.... there have been some great christian men and women who have shown the love of Jesus.
i think every generation will struggle with this until we see jesus... because intolerance fulfills our self centred sinful selfs and causes us to create a fasade of fake faith... which sells of course.
point is this: to agree or disagree with your point is meh.. the reality is that YES we as a religious sect have been identified as intolerant. (of course with some exception.) and YES we should be a faith that inspires tolerance.... perhaps i'd say this... our faith should inspire love.
love and peace mark. i like the image too. look for answers.
lost
looking
for
art.
:)
jef.
ha!!! i caught myself! yup i sure id.....i was reading the last post about Christ smoking a stogie and i was going to do the old "man ya think Jesus would intentionally put crap and poisons into his body!" ahhhh, yes we are intolerable, but more than that, we are human.........mark, i find myself more and more tolerable over certain things, yet, and this is a big yet, i believe we all have our limits just as Christ had his limits.......the temple thrashing comes to mind! yuppers , Christ was pretty darn tolerable, but man when he had enough, he had enough! he musta been pissed! (to coin a phrase)
i think we are to be tolerable, yet, do you think our Shepard wants us to be intolerable of some things?
what I see is that when a Christian makes a stand we are called intolerable, yet if we make a stand based on the teachings of Christ is it wrong??
Anon - Here are some key points I want to respond to based on your post.
we must be careful not to take an example from Jesus life and splatter that to be an example of how we should live out lives without a properly looking at who he was addressing within the cultural context of his actions.
Jesus' intolerance was to the religious people who made no room for others to have opportunity to draw close to God. This intolerance is what we need to have.
Was Jesus ever intolerant of those who were 'sinners' and tax collectors?
In no case did Jesus Stand against any 'sinner' with intolerance. He actually was accused of eating with them. He was also one who stood up for those that the religious right were intolerant of.
Where are we making room for the 'seeker' or are we making it diffiecult for them to enter the kingdom.
You are right... we are to be intolerable of some things ... but things that make it difficult for people to understand the kingdom... or things that take their space for spiritual discovery ...like religiousity...those are the things we are to be intolerant of.
"the seeker" - Christ picked his battles, that is an absolute. as i read thru the bible, and looking at the Gospels for this convo, Christ showed his intolerance in a variety of different ways. When he spoke to the woman at the well, when he healed on the sabbath, when he dined with the tax collectors, yes Christ had the quiet rebellion happening, the character trait a lot of us desire, he stood up against the ones in power at the time, and said "dudes things have gotta change".........and they have, they still are.......the key to so much of what Christ did, his actions, was that he was always in the will of teh Father, and he knew this cuz he spent a lot of time in communion with our Father........
do we need lasers, fog machines, special effects to draw in the unsaved, I dunno, I do know it works for Hillsong......but take away all the special effects and they seek God, worship God, and He blesses them by them bieng in his will....
I think we need to become intollerant of tradition. Now, before I'm stoned read what i have to say.
When I say tradtion, I mean the stuff that, although may not go angainst scripture, it hinders the Spirit, it hinders 'evanelism' it hinders being an impact. It's the stuff like, "only hymns" or "Only contemporary", or "This is how we've always done communion", Or "this is always how the service is structured," or, "we don't clap.. dance.." "When in church and the songs are going, you have to stand... 'it's respectful.'"
The tradtion of communion is good. But holding to how it's 'always been done' is probably not.
Jesus held the children and the seekers in high regard. I think there is a direct relationship there. The children are raised in the modern culture of the time. They KNOW what's in and what's not (so long as thier parents dont' shelter them from the world) and when they are rejected or turned donw, or only allowed 'once in a while' to go further and explore thier passions, the effectfulness of the church dies. I'm not saying there's anything against the older generations, but that is the 'short' thought I just had.
Just a quick note Steve. Communion is not just a tradition. Christ told us to do it in remeberance of him. Maybe we have traditionalized the act/or how we do it, but that is a sacrament. The other sacrament is baptism. Def: Sacraments are ritual actions in worship which, according to Scripture, were instituted by Jesus. In the sacraments of baptism and communion we ask the Holy Spirit to use water, bread, and wine to make visible the grace, forgiveness, and presence of God in Christ.
Now as far as music, hymns, standing or sitting, hey you are right on in those regards.
We must remember a couple of big things: one is we need to honor those who came before us, even if they get in the way with thier walkers, next, not all tradition is bad, just a lot of it is stale! imago Dei- my current study. image of God. the more i understand what this means, the more i see the need for tolerance of tradition. change will continue to happen, we just need to do it in a fashion that does not dishonor those who cleared the path for us!
I have heard a few times the phrase "the will of GOD"...I wish I could say that in a deep deep voice for all to hear. What is the will of GOD? Often we walk around asking ourselves, praying....Lord I just want to do your will...tell me what your will is.
Well, I think Christ told us what the will of the Father was....to feed the sick, clothe the naked, bind up the brokenhearted and set captives free...and to love one another as Christ loved us. Wow, now can we start a revolution of doing the will!?! So often we are held back because we don't know exactly the very thing we are to do (will of God) and so we wait, and wait to hear from God...when we need to get out there, roll up our sleeves and get busy.
We are all called to be missional (I loved that saying). Our focus is so often ourselves...what will make us feel good, comfort us and bring us joy and peace. God promises to comfort us, give us joy and unmeasurable peace. What is our role? To serve others, give to others, live for God, serve others. We live in a pretty messed up place...called earth, ghandi knew it, Jesus knew it, and other great saints and missional people knew it, yet it didn't mess them up, it challenged them to make a difference, step out, and live like there is no tomorrow. Live by touching others, being in community.
Mark you asked to hear my story...it is long...I have written on my blog bits and pieces. I work for a Mission organization called New Direction Ministries, we offer a safe place for those struggling with unwanted same gender attractions...and the organization started with that and now we are seeing more and more people who struggle with sex addictions, relational issues coming to us, because for the most part, the church doesn't know how to deal with those issues. They are uncomfortable issues for a lot of people.
Now coming out from identifying myself as a gay man, to now...identifying myself as a heterosexual man who struggles with unwanted same gender attractions, it is difficult, a not so worn path is infront of me an I am learning and growing each day. Every day when I answer an email from someone who is 12 years old or 35 years old who is seeking help...yet are fearful to speak to anyone from their church...that for me...breaks me. It brings me to my knees in tears and I ask myself...when will the church body learn to love. Now don't get me wrong...there are men and women in the body of christ who get it...who open their arms.
I am an urban missionary...working for this organization, I raise my own support...argh...that is a challenge, it brings me to a new level of trust and faith that I wish all Christian's could feel and experience. That each one of us could understand the full measure of giving, of our everything.
More of my journey is on my blog...but you can also reach me at kenny@newdirection.ca
God is great...I am just getting back into the world of Christians and the church, it is fascinating, challenging and I am meeting some awesome people who are on fire...who want to start a revolution for the kingdom...and who are lovers of Christ.
Keep on posting man...this is good stuff.
Mark, just fell upon your blog through a link on a mates blog. Strange. Interesting blog with some wicked comments so I thought I'd add mine ot your collection...
I think the main problem with the church is that we have become a body of talkers. We are totally good at preaching and "doing church" whatever that means. But we are uncomfortable with getting out there and actually being obedient to what Christ called us to and what His example shows us. To eat, drink and live with sinners, love them (and you are right, we so often don't understand the meaning of love). So innately all good evangelical Christians feel the pressure that if they don't go to church on a Sunday, hell if they miss it for a month or whatever, that they are "back-sliding" and that is a travesty. The pressure to do the event, build the programme and make church a success has become our philosophy and sometimes more important than our theology or belief of who God is. I was at an interview this week and just telling my prospective agency consultant about my current job at the church where I work. And as I described it, she exclaimed, is it a church or a business? hmmmmm. What have we become? Do anyone know what God really wants anymore? For me, church is boring, it's just another meeting... we hardly talk about Jesus anymore and certainly not with any passion for knowing Him. Yes we are passionate about revival, having a good marriage, being successful in business, seeing miracles but don't give a toss about the one who gave us a chance to know God. Do we care about Jesus anymore? Are we seeking him? or have we completely lost the plot! I guess the question I have is what is the "bride of Christ" supposed to look like? I believe that classic cliche that "the local church is God's plan for the world". But shouldn't we ask the question so that we can become what God wants us to be and not what we think we should be? Maybe then we could be a little more compassionate and tolerant to those who don't yet embrace His love...
Steph
Thx for the post... Kiwi's are always welcome. Appreciate your perspective. I must confess I find church exrtemely boring as well. Do we go out of duty? Obligation?
I would say that possibly the question the woman asked you, is it church or business? Might be a reason why we have people confused about that is that we have tried to seperate them. Church is business, church is entertainment, church is government and education. I think people living missional lives in these areas is what the church is supposed to be. What 'the church' has done is tried to seperate itself from these and made itself an island unto itself. Everything else is seen as a threat to its [the church's] existence.
In doing this we have become so 'service oriented' we have lost what it means to live holistic lives.
Thoughts??
Mark.. quick response. Thanx.
Yes the arena's of business, government, education, law, media - we need Christ-followers there being light. To live "holistic" lives as you put it. True. There seems to be so much emphasis on services and being at church that we aren't necessarily putting value on people in their vocations. Maybe my thoughts stem from my frustration of always being with Christians and working in a Christian environment. Probably. I guess I do hate the pressure we put on our people to serve at this event, and do this at this conference. The events become our focus and are no longer viewed as a medium to encourage and strengthen believers as they live out their lives in the world in which they live.
It is this island that we have created that I struggle with, we still see it in the language we use... I find myself doing it, talking about non-christians and people outside of faith. Even this language use encourages the mindset that we are separate when maybe we are better off referring to ourselves as human beings and everyone being on a spiritual journey. Some of us walking with God, others seeking and others ignorant of God. I guess what is confusing is that in scripture we are called to be separate in the way that we live our lives (in our character) and we have totally separated ourselves because we fear the unknown, we feel that if we immerse ourselves in the culture around us, we will loose our faith, which actually communicates a lack of belief in the strength of our faith and in God's hand on our lives and I'm sure this was never God's intention.
Your thoughts??
Steph
You make a very good point... if we are afraid to 'lose' faith by mixing with our world then we I woudl question the depth and strength of that faith. It seems that we also have a fear of doubt and those that desire to inquire by approaching things with a more thoughtful and critical approach.
There is an arrogance in much Xian thought that says we have something that others do not. Rather than saying we are all just normal people on a journey. do we need to focus on what makes us separate from everyone else [that seems insecure to me]. Rather I think focussing on the shared journey and where we can find strength and learn from one another is what will bring us to a place of true dialogue and spiritual transformation.
Mark: I think what you said is beautiful and I want that to be so in my life. It is my ideal standing point to see everyone in the same boat. We are all human afterall. But I find it difficult because I have been so conditioned being hte the Christian fishbowl nearly my whole life to believe that I am "separate". I find my mindsets and default attitudes disturbing and it may take some time to re-shape and re-condition...
I do think alot of the xian arrogance stems from insecurity. And I wonder why we xians are so insecure in our faith. Why do we hold things so tightly and not have faith in our God and his ability to hold onto us and his passion for the lost and the knowledge that he will do all possible to bring people back into the family.
If we weren't so insecure maybe our evangelistic style would be more advisory and guide-like and thus people on their own journey would find Christ for themselves and not pretend to find him to satisfy our beliefs of how we think conversion and their xian expression should be.
One of the greatest lies of our century! Christians have bought into it world wide, the lie is as steph said above,"the need for us to be seperate". It is a lie from the pit, it is so opposite of who Jesus is, it is oppostie of who He wants us to be! I know we are called to be Holy, and as I continue on this adventure called "christianity" I will continue to grow, but Holy is not seperate, it is facing the reality that we are in this world, we need to be part of this world, but we got to put Him forst in all we do so people see that we have what they are looking for!
Astonish me, wow me, reach those hwo will never go into a traditional church, but do it in a fashion that they see Christ in what you do
My Thoughts,
I don't think it has anything to do with our pastors, or our churches. I think it has to do with our individual relationship with Jesus. Jesus loved everyone and accepted everyone, this is something that the vast majority of "Christians" have not yet understood. I know that it takes time, but if people would spend more time with Jesus naybe we could change this perception. Mark I have to agree we are the most intollerant religious group on the planet, and that sucks.
Other religions respect Jesus for his teachings. We follow Jesus because of his teachings, and claim that we want to be like him, but somewhere we have lost what it means to be a disciple, someone who goes everywhere and does everything that the teacher/mentor does, that is a disciple.
Misfit
You make a good point... Jesus loved and accepted people... I am not so sure we know what thet means. It seems to me we havea hard time accepting people that are fundamentally different than us..but in reality they are just like us.
Its true that we have never fully realized what it means to be a disciple. A fellow christian told me recently that in the next year he would like to pray more regularily. Its like hes trying to live up to some expectation of a good prayer life. But a closeness to God is what is really needed. I have a hindu friend who feels guity because she hasn't gone to a temple to pray in a while. So many people, myself included, feel they need to pray more. They need to read their bible more. These are necessary things, but we need to ask why we do the things we do. Why do we get up earlier than we'd like to every sunday? I believe the most important thing is to seek God's face, as cliche as that sounds. When I seek God, I become attracted to him and who he is. Then I get a genuine desire to be like him. That is where discipleship starts. With an attraction to Christ.
But how do we help others discover Christ? What is our role in that?
I don't want to force feed anyone.
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