Very Good conversation!!!
So the essence of what man lost was the ability to sustain life... [life being a broader word than just the physical]
the fall of man was not that he became evil, bad, or depraved. But more the fact that Man has lost the ability to sustain life... our sinful nature is that death is at work in us... ... Jer makes a great point in that 'man's perception of self was changed.'.. he no longer saw goodness but he saw evil.
the purpose of Jesus was to bring the life giving nature of humankind back to a place where we can live in that sustaining element. And see that he was created and intended for good.
Here is the clincher ... any where there is a life giving element... God is in it!!! I have seen this First hand in my experience. People doing good ... the spirit of Jesus oozing out everywhere.
Jesus is a 'life giving spirit'... 'I have come that you might have life and have it to the full'
One of the mysteries of the kingdom I think is that the lifegiving nature of Christ is 'amoung men, in the the midst of men' and at work in them eventhough they do not know it.
Life can be given by even those who we do not recognize as Xian... is it still God? How is it that in some cases the lifegiving nature of Christ is completely absent from those that call themselves Christian?
But yet those that do not know Christ operate in this regularly. Its almost that they know the spirit of Christ but not him personally.
Does this make any sense?
Now filter all moral decisions through this grid... does it give life or death. That is more accurate to the nature of God over a 'right and wrong' approach.
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12 comments:
Perhaps I'm missing the point, but are you referring to the difference between religion and relationship? May who call themselves Christians are simply outwardly religious, and many who have relationship with Christ, struggle in that relationship to overcome their sinful natures. (so one can appear to be more "good" than the other) Judging by human standards of right and wrong, good and bad, is dangerous territory. After all, God says, "My ways are far above your ways, and My thoughts are far above your thoughts..." and Jesus also says "what is highly esteemed among men, is detestable to God" The only way to really judge this, beginning with our own lives, is to judge by the fruit: Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self control...and by God's wisdom: pure, peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.
2 Peter 1:5-9 (New International Version)For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
Note: Goodness is a quality that is ADDED to faith, but doesnt replace it. Faith and trust in Jesus Christ must always come first..
This is in response to Mark and Cathy
That makes me think of Rahab.
She wasn't a Jew, but she was a Canaanite. God used her to give life to the spies, or sustain life rather. And then the spies helped sustain her life as well... and God was in the midst of all of it. How do we know that? The very person who we claim to be FULLY God and FULLY man comes from the lineage of this non-Jewish woman, who could very well have been a prostitute... pretty dodgey if you ask me... :)
Later on Rahab did come to know God. I think that the Jews knew God in more of a relational sense than a lot of us like to think, because, I know for me we often throw the concept of 'pharisee's' over the whole idea of Jewish. But, the Jews as a whole knew who God was in a very real living way. God claimed to be friends with people in the bible such as Abraham. And David was "The man after [God's] own heart." Implying relationships (Or so I believe).
So, Gods' goodness comes through individuals, whether they know him or not. He uses all things for His glory.
i think after the fall man became aware of evil, he saw good and bad, his/our awareness became broader//////////to say he no longer saw goodness is a pretty harsh statement to make.
as far as life giving element and GOD bieng in it, that is a given, is it not, I mean HE was/is the Creator.....
your question regarding the life giving nature, and it bieng absent in some so called Xians.......the letter of Hebrews hits that square on, chapter 12 nails it pretty bang on.
we can have all kinds of garbage hanging on to us, hiding what God wants revealed, like the gold and the refiners fire, we need to be willing to under go the heat, and allow the grace HE has given us to become evident in our lives.
all through time there has been good in all cultures, we are drawn to it, my bigger question is because something seems "good" is it of God?
I was going to ask something along the same lines as anonymous. I agree for the most part, but I wonder can something appear to give life without being "good"? Can we ever completely transfer from some kind of "right/wrong" understanding?
"all through time there has been good in all cultures, we are drawn to it, my bigger question is because something seems "good" is it of God?"
Well, maybe there is danger in a 2-dimensional view of this. There is a way that seems right (or good) to a man, but the end result is death. The Scriptures also tell us that there is no one who does good. We have all sinned and fallen short so in that sense there is no good in man. It also says that Satan, in order to deceive, can transform himself into "an angel of light"..what could be 'gooder' than that? And then, as Steve pointed out, God often receives those whom we deem as unworthy (ie prostitutes), and rejects those whom we think are 'good people'.
Perhaps this is just beyond human reasoning...
Markimus
Vancouver tomorrow.
Boomer.
The Chad.
Cactus.
Your Truely.
with all my love,
-jer
Dan you ask can we ever get away from 'right and wrong'
Was right and wrong to ever be what life is about?
Jer
Have fun!!!
Wish I could be there for some good cactus food, some good spirit[s] ;) and meaningful conversation.
Next time boys.
Hmmm.
Vancouver bloggers meeting and I'm left alone sipping my espresso. I'LL NEVER POST HERE AGAIN!!!
I'd like to post an amazing prayer
by John Wesley;
"Lord, I am no longer my own, but Yours. Put me to what You will, rank me with whom You will. Let me be employed by You or laid aside for You, exalted for You or brought low by You. Let me have all things, let me have nothing, I freely and heartily yield all things to Your pleasure and disposal. And now, O glorious and blessed God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, You are mine and I am Yours. So be it. Amen."
Saying that life is "about right/wrong" could really mean alot of things. So I don't know if I could answer your question. What I've been noticing lately is that the bible says alot about the things we do bringing about life or death. So in my mind, right and wrong is in some way tied to life and death.
Paul ... Huh? Where's the meeting? And post where?
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