So after a meaningful converstaion today over slurpees with a few thinkers [Steveo, Dan, and Blake, and some Metrosexual who sat and gazed into his philosphy textbook but said nothing]. I was provoked to look at some things...
a little different
So I want to try something a little different...
I want to post three posts over the next seven days ... Several questions and several statements?
Its a progressive conversation... BUT The only way this works is if you share your thoughts so lets give it a try ...
First Question....
God Created man 'after his own image.' When all was said and done God said "IT WAS VERY GOOD"
WHAT IS GOOD?
26 comments:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"
Before God said all of His creation was very good He blessed man, so before we can define what very good is do we not need to understand how God blessed them?
and to take the word "good" in the context of the time of creation is going to have a totally different meaning than what we count as good in today, and in this culture. it is an apple and orange comparison.
when God said it was very good, at that moment, it was perfect, it was as He intended it to be, that changes, and as soon as man/woman chose tree "b" over tree "a" the def. of very good must change with it.
Is not the blessing an indication of how he blessed them? What did God say in the blessing?
So if Good has changed... what was it then and what is it now?... and what was it in the rest of Scripture? where it was defined the same way with the same word, in the same language with the same meaning?
God
mark how can the def of good be the same? once Adam intentionally used his freewill to eat the fruit "good" or that word could no longer describe the earth God created, for it was fallen.
I might point out that the tree we were not supposed to eat was called "The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" - perhaps part of our problem is that we are still trying to do good from the same tree instead of going to the Tree of Life.
Alex... Very Good point... can you expand?
Cathy... I am glad you pointed that out...that has tweaked an entire thought process in my mind... so was the eating of the tree mean that man would 'know' [be intimately intwined] good AND EVIL. Man[kind] already was intimately intwined with good but would now know evil as well?
Anon - ... I just want to know what the difference is? How has it changed?
I disagree. I think it goes much deeper. I think that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil is a powerful biblical model of the Law. (ICor15:56). It is through the law that we derive our knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge actually brings death, as it distracts us from the One who is the source of Life- the Tree of Life - Jesus. The Tree of Knowledge causes us to focus our attention upon ourselves so we either become corrupt (evil side) or self-righteous (good side). The best way Satan can still keep us from the tree of Life, is to continue to focus upon ourselves. This "good" actually brings death.
As I traverse the mortal coil upon which I am bound, I come to see what is 'good' more and more in relative terms.
Sex is good, in the confines of marraige. Food is good, unless someone is overly-obese.
Money is good, when used for moral and ethical objectives.
Further to this I see 'good' as crossing the laws and boundaries set by humans.
I am perfectly legally entitled to smoke cigarettes, but is this 'good' for my body?
I am perfectly within my 'rights' to rent a porn movie, but is this 'good' for my spirit?
In answer to my previous comment. "God created man after his own image... and saw it was very good" Whatever is after the likeness of God, would therefore be 'good'!
Alex ... Very good.. Thx for expanding that. I think there is sime correlation to what Cathy is saying as well... this 'good' runs deeper...
I love the points you are making Cathy about there is some 'good' that actually brings death... so what is the 'good' that God speaks of?
Very good stuff folks!!!
Well, i remember talking and someone said (might have been with you mark, but I could very well be wrong and mixing up convo's) but I remember someone say, "To know what good is, maybe we need to understand what bad is?"
In that God created us in His image, in His likeness, makes us good. So we can embrace that, use it, and even manipulate it.
What if man himself, and his actions are very, very different. And although very closely intertwined, the two hold very seperate values in God's eyes. For example, He loves us, but hates our sin.
Because we sin, are we therefore not good? After all, God made us IN HIS IMAGE- IN HIS LIKENESS. Now, I don't know if this correlates with sin itself. Are the two actually so connected? "For God so loved the world." We always here God hates evil and loves good... maybe the corruption is not within the creation itself, therefore making the creation still good, but the problem lies deeper than that, lies in the sin and the choices we make.
It could very well be that we are good. How can you taint something that isn't good? We often claim that we taint ourselves when we sin. We are destroying that which is good, and corrupting it. So the creation is good, and what the creation itself chooses is not?
"some Metrosexual who sat and gazed into his philosphy textbook but said nothing"
do i know him mark?
on another note: [ i havnt read the plethora of other comments]
every good and perfect thing comes from god.
everything is spiritual.
all truth is god's truth.
all good is god's goodness or revelation.
is that too radical?
jeffrey.
When God tells us the truth about ourselves, THAT IS GOOD.
Micah 6:8-16 (The Message) 8But he's already made it plain how to live, what to do,
what God is looking for in men and women.
It's quite simple: Do what is fair and just to your neighbor,
be compassionate and loyal in your love,
And don't take yourself too seriously—
take God seriously.
9Attention! God calls out to the city!
If you know what's good for you, you'll listen.
So listen, all of you!
This is serious business.
10-16"Do you expect me to overlook obscene wealth
you've piled up by cheating and fraud?
Do you think I'll tolerate shady deals
and shifty scheming?
I'm tired of the violent rich
bullying their way with bluffs and lies.
I'm fed up. Beginning now, you're finished.
You'll pay for your sins down to your last cent.
No matter how much you get, it will never be enough—
hollow stomachs, empty hearts.
No matter how hard you work, you'll have nothing to show for it—
bankrupt lives, wasted souls.
You'll plant grass
but never get a lawn.
You'll make jelly
but never spread it on your bread.
You'll press apples
but never drink the cider.
You have lived by the standards of your king, Omri,
the decadent lifestyle of the family of Ahab.
Because you've slavishly followed their fashions,
I'm forcing you into bankruptcy.
Your way of life will be laughed at, a tasteless joke.
Your lives will be derided as futile and fake."
If I wanted to hear religious jargon or someone telling me how to think I'd be watching 100 Huntley Street right now. If I want to learn more of who I am and how I was created and in essence why everything has the potential to be good, I think I would talk to a group of mostly open people who interested and willing to give and take in an open dialogue.
Mark - Great post. What is good? I really liked Jeffro's with the simple, but radical (I can't look at that word the same since Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles) comment. Maybe good is just the simple fact of finding those redeeming qualities of life. Maybe good is the things that bring into dialogue or thought with God. A good cup of coffee in the morning, laying in bed with your wife, playing with your kids, a walk in the woods, maybe good is what helps take us back to the garden where God saw no blemish in any of us. I like good, it's from God, I just need to learn to hold onto it more.
Maybe good is the things that bring into dialogue or thought with God....maybe good is what helps take us back to the garden where God saw no blemish in any of us.
Nice thoughts Matt. I think that sums up what I was trying to put into words too. Maybe God said it was good because it gave him and us a chance to have a conversation...much like this.
Oh, and I'll give a +1 feedback to the first part of Hawk's post too
I think that "good" is a reference to the fact that they we're what he had intended. Good likely had no meaning to man himself since he simply was, and perfectly ties to his creator. Bringing back in the thought of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" good now took on a whole new meaning. What simply was before, was now divided into good and bad. Now there was a judgement to be made on everything. Perhaps that's why man was "very good". God had already place a judgement on everything, but man was unaware of it...very good. A thought inspired by C.S. Lewis in the problem of pain.
Excuse the ridiculous grammar...I didn't read through before I posted.
"everything is spiritual.
all truth is god's truth.
all good is god's goodness or revelation."
YES!!
The bible isn't religious jargon. Just for the record.
- different anonymous
In a certain context it can be.
Back to topic...
all good is god's goodness or revelation
Doesn't this still leave the definition of "good" still up in the air though? I like the honest simplicity here, but maybe Jeffro or Postal can expand a wee bit more?
Is good an adverb or an adjective?Is good done out of impure motive diminish its goodness?
Hmm, the Bible actually says "good" after everything that God created. Then once it was all done, it was VERY GOOD. The harmony, the oneness, the beauty. The very good was probably an expression of God's great satisfaction. How far we have fallen! But how wonderful that Jesus will ultimately bring total restoration of what had been intended for us in the beginning. Eye has n In the meantime, the whole creation is groaning, waiting for the fullness of Christ to be revealed ..
Romans 8:22-28 (New International Version)We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
God's satisfaction is like that of an artist... when they look at their art and see an expression of themselves in it all they are satisfied... After each step in creation God said 'it was good' but after man ... and specifically man he said 'VERY good.' I think God is making a point that maybe we miss.
Cathy ... you make a statement 'How far have we fallen' This is connected to my next post so I want us to save that thought until then...
Next post Tuesday 2:30 PST
OK, time to throw something into the mix..
"What you intended for evil, God intended for good"
Hmmm... thoughts?
Yes, through power of the Spirit we can overcome evil with good (blessing). Do good to those who hate you. In this way God uses those people with evil intent, or situations that are unfair, etc, to bring about His purposes.
as in Luke 6 27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
Wow your blego must be huge after getting 20+ comments. Congrats.
I only get a few but it's because I show cool pictures of my kids.
What is good? That is a "good" ?
I can't really think about the question because I keep laughing that you have a guy's nuts showing on your blog. I wonder if anyone will be offended that I honestly said that. But what's funnier is that I am the first to comment on that. Come on...most of you were thinking it.
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