****Note --for all those BIBLE/DOCTRINE police out there ... all of these posts are filtered through a scriptural grid... [YES I know some may find it hard to believe I do believe in the BIBLE ] ... there is a scritpural lense to corraborate this 'theologicial exploration.' I purposely do not list it to save time, and keep it simple.***
***Nor do I try to expand on all the conceptual triggers I am making to peoples comments and thought processes...it would take too long to do this****
****To be conclusive with my thoughts would defeat the purpose of this conversation.***
Looking at some of the great stuff folks have been writing I have to summarize a few
Alex --- Good = the likeness of God.
Cathy --- Some good can bring death?
Jeffro --- All good is God's
Matthew --- good is finding those redeeming qualities of life
Good is the essense of God... Good is life... God is life... All life comes from God... God saw what he made and that is was lifegiving and complete[it was good].
What was lost when man[kind] 'fell'?
Did everything become evil?
Was the good that God spoke of completely removed erased from existence?
Was God looking at his creation and saying 'It is very bad?'
Does any creative being after their creation appears to be less than ideal say such things about their handiwork?
God's articulation on 'good' is its ability to sustain and create life.
If its good then its lifegiving and produces more life... if its evil it brings death!
Agree....Disagree?
25 comments:
Careful Mark,
Your blog is starting to look like a microcosm of the Jesus Seminar.
Nice butt BTW
=)
Alex...
LOL
I think you are going to need to expand on that before I respond.
BTW ... There's always a joke about butts isn't there?
Man Mark, your blog always makes me think, even if it frustrates me sometimes. Which is usually how the thinking process goes for me anyways. That concept is something that I've struggled with a little. The idea that since we've sinned, we're all bad or evil. I don't think that's the case though. That's about as far as I've thought on this one. No conclusions as of yet.
well, if your statement "if it's evil, it brings death" means death in any sort of physical manner then i wouldn't really agree. but if we're all in agreement that the terms "life" and "death" go beyond simply being alive or being dead, then i might be inclined to beleive you.
granted though, i'm not exactly positive on how i would describe them with words... but it's all in my head.
so what are we using to define evil? I hate to bring it up but is it the absence of God? or can GOD be present where there is evil? did all become evil upon the fall of man? no, however GOD did bring about some changes, as well as we became aware of light and dark, good and bad!
so does evil always lead to death, always is a pretty big word, but evil can lead to light
If we must believe that God is omnipresent, everywhere, allaround then yes...we are forced to believe that God is present where there is evil.
"however GOD did bring about some changes, as well as we became aware of light and dark, good and bad!"
Intersting thought; my response is simply this - God and man both brought about change in keeping with God's directives to man to be co-creator.
The other thought that you (annon) touched on that I think is very interesting is the self-perception of Adam and Eve - its not that they became aware of light and dark...they became aware of dark. Now, here is another intersting bit: How do you know who you are? By your relation to others. You know you are normal or wierd by comparing to those around you.
How did Adam and Eve know who they were? By comparing themselves to God and to the rest of creation....so what changed when they were "ashamed and naked?" Their self-perception changed.
Delbert... I am glad you brought that up... Life and death are far more than physcial [but we must not exclude that]. I think life is more of an 'ethos or essence' than a state.
Jeremy
Well put... God is present where there is eveil... and I am not sure there is even a scriptural basis to say that He is not.
I also think you are pushing into some deeper stuff... our perception of who we are is Vital to our ability to understand life. If I see myself as evil ... chances are I will be evil... If I see myself as good... then...
Maybe part of what was lost was the ability to see the good and wonder of who man was created to be.
Well truly we are both evil and good. Although we know the Lord and our spirit is alive when we are born again, our flesh is still corrupt, destined to death. Our spirit is alive to God, and is created to have communion with Him. There are always two forces working within us, our fallen Adamic nature, and our new nature. They are in a war with each other. And as Paul says, life and death are also working side by side - the more I die to my "Self" the more I find myself filled with the Life of Christ.
Now sink your teeth into this prayerful meditation:
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
But it is a much more fearful thing to fall out of them.
Did Lucifer fall through knowledge?
oh then, pity him, pity him that plunge!
Save me, O God, from falling into the ungodly knowledge of myself as I am without God.
Let me never know, O God let me never know what I am or should be
when I have fallen out of your hands, the hands of the living God.
That awful and sickening endless sinking, sinking
through the slow corruptive levels of disintegrative knowledge
when the self has fallen from the hands of God
and sinks, seething and sinking, corrupt
and sinking still, in depth after depth of disintegrative consciousness
sinking in the endless undoing, the awful katabolism into the abyss!
even of the soul, fallen from the hands of God!
Save me from that, O God!
Let me never know myself apart from the living God!
D.H. Lawrence 1885 - 1930
I only meant my comment in fun, after all you haven't got round to coloured marbles yet.
With regards to fall, it's difficult to put together. It's one of those things we'll only understand when we are finally made holy.
God had a plan, I think the question is was it scuppered because of the fall, was the fall included in that plan, or was the plan in despite of the fall?
I honestly don't have a clue, but I see in history and even now, God seems to take our decisions and bring into effect what he desires.
Whether the waves crash against the rocks or crawl up the sand.. the tide eventually comes in, there's no stopping it.
is evil then the darkness? and if that is the case, where ever God is there is no darkness, because He is light. There can not be darkness in light. there might be some shadows, darkness on the edge, but i can not grasp how GOD can be present in the darkness and it still be dark
K, I have a thought. Do with it as you may...
Jesus, or God as some of us have known to call and love him as, came in the flesh. God came in the flesh. Probably all of us have heard the illustration that God and sin are like oil and water. Flesh is not corrupt, I don't think. I think it goes beyond the flesh. It's more in the spirit, seemingly.
So evil, going on the thought of darkness is something that is not necessarily seen? Or is it? Can you see evil, or do you see it's actions/reactions?
There are many examples in Scripture of God being in the darkness ie
Exodus 20:20-22 (New International Version) Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning." The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.
anonymous... might want to dig deeper into that... Cathy is pointing to one of many situations in scripture where God is in the darkness as well as in the midst of evil...
Try reading the story of Sodom and Gomorrah again... Look into who those men were... were they angels or were they God?
Alex
I was pretty sure hat was a joke... but wanted to be sure before I pinned your butt up on the blog ;)
J:
'How did Adam and Eve know who they were? By comparing themselves to God and to the rest of creation....so what changed when they were "ashamed and naked?" Their self-perception changed.'
It didnt matter who they were as much as it mattered who their Father was. The harmony in that relationship meant that they didnt need self-perception. Self is what took over after they ate of the tree, and we have been at the mercy of our own selfishness ever since.
M- " might want to dig deeper into that... Cathy is pointing to one of many situations in scripture where God is in the darkness as well as in the midst of evil... "
In God himself there is no darkness as in I John 1 "God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." but it goes on to say that we can claim to know Him, but walk in darkness. There is no place that I can go to hide from God, but God will not choose to "dwell" with us if we choose to walk in the darkness, rather than the light. However, that is probably another topic..
Kathy - I want to agree with that but I simply can not.
Why?
Becuase it was Self that made the choice to eat of the tree.
Not to mention that ever since we have been at God's mercy.
Jer ... I would agree ... It is the proper awareness of self that makes the difference between a healthy and fruitful life and one of the mere existence of 'dead men walking'
Persona and Praxa...
Who am I and what Am I here to do... If you trace this back even to God's blessing over Adam and Eve its there.
Who was he - Adam - Son of God
What was he to do - Rule the earth.
God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
Rather than ruling he subjucated himself to the snake... thus his perception of self shifted.
"Kathy - I want to agree with that but I simply can not.
Why? Becuase it was Self that made the choice to eat of the tree.
Not to mention that ever since we have been at God's mercy"
J -Before eating of the tree, Father God was our master. We had sweet communion and trusting relationship. The temptation came..and what was that temptation?..it was to be like God ourselves, to know good and evil, to be wise. So in effect we said to God, no, I want to think for myself, I want to make my own decisions apart from you. You can hang around but I still want to be in control. So in choosing disobedience we put "self" on the throne. Now until we die to this self-love, self-life, we will forever be at the mercy of our selfishness, it runs deep in our blood. "The heart is wicked and deceitful above all things". Even the good we do, often comes from mixed or impure motives. Without God's mercy and grace we are of all men most miserable...of course no one wants to hear this message, we would rather be told "nice" things..but truth often isnt so nice...the true Gospel is hard and the way is narrow and few find it..we deny ourSELF pick up our cross and follow Him, we seek to lose our life and then we will gain it for eternal life, etc, etc. And because the way is narrow, I dont suspect that many will agree with this.
K - I like that you call me J! I've never been called J! JP, Jer, Postal, the Mailman, eddie def, eddie d, e.d., airmail, and a bunch of others....but never J. I feel your love.
That said - God may have been master but obviously not controller. Self pre-existed sin and temptation; how would Satan have fallen without self? How would there be temptation to be like God or have a prideful lust without self? Impossible. To say that self came after the fall simply can not and does not work in a Christian theology.
K - you said these words, "So in effect we said to God, no, I want to think for myself, I want to make my own decisions apart from you."
Doesn't it seem a little closer to Scripture to say it this way, "So in effect God said, no, I want you to think for yourself, I want you to make your own decisions." all the while knowing that they were going to make choices that would turn the human race from co-creators to creation-destroyers? Says something about this God that we serve doesn't it?
Hey J..no one has ever called me K either..C maybe, but not K..hehe
But to continue..I never said that self did not exist only that self was in initially in full submission to the creator, so self was never the focus. Since the fall, self became "god"....thats why those scriptures I mentioned are so important, they put self back where it belongs...death. So I reinterate my last post:
So in choosing disobedience we put "self" on the throne. Now until we die to this self-love, self-life, we will forever be at the mercy of our selfishness, it runs deep in our blood. "The heart is wicked and deceitful above all things". Even the good we do, often comes from mixed or impure motives. Without God's mercy and grace we are of all men most miserable...of course no one wants to hear this message, we would rather be told "nice" things..but truth often isnt so nice...the true Gospel is hard and the way is narrow and few find it..we deny ourSELF pick up our cross and follow Him, we seek to lose our life and then we will gain it for eternal life, etc, etc.
Sorry J...Perhaps Im not explaining myself very well. I dont mean to be confusing the matter...perhaps this quote from Watchman Nee might help:
We know the Lord Jesus has dealt with the sin of our flesh on His cross. And the Word informs us that “our old self was crucified with him” (Rom. 6.6). Nowhere in the Bible are we told to be crucified since this has been done and done perfectly by Christ already. With regard to the question of sin, man is not required to do anything. He need only consider this an accomplished fact (Rom. 6.11) and he will reap the effectiveness of the death of Jesus in being wholly delivered from the power of sin (Rom. 6.14).
We are never asked in the Bible to be crucified for sin, that is true. It does exhort us, however, to take up the cross for denying self. The Lord Jesus instructs us many times to deny ourselves and take up the cross and follow Him. The explanation for this is that the Lord Jesus deals with our sins and with ourselves very differently. To wholly conquer sin the believer needs but a moment; to deny the self he needs an entire lifetime. Only on the cross did Jesus bear our sins; yet throughout His life the Lord denied Himself. The same must be true of us.
The Galatian letter of Paul delineates the relationship between the flesh and the believer. He tells us on the one hand that “those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires” (5.24). On the very day one becomes identified with the Lord Jesus then his flesh also is crucified. Now one might think, without the Holy Spirit’s instruction, that his flesh is no longer present, for has it not been crucified? But no, on the other hand the letter says to us to “walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh” (5.16-17). Here we are told openly that one who belongs to Christ Jesus and has already the indwelling Holy Spirit still has the flesh in him. Not only does the flesh exist; it is described as being singularly powerful as well.
What can we say? Are these two Biblical references contradictory? No, verse 24 stresses the sin of the flesh, while verse 17 the self of the flesh. The cross of Christ deals with sin and the Holy Spirit through the cross treats of self. Christ delivers the believer completely from the power of sin through the cross that sin may not reign again; but by the Holy Spirit Who dwells in the believer, Christ enables him to overcome self daily and obey Him perfectly. Liberation from sin is an accomplished fact; denial of self is to be a daily experience
Post a Comment